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[irc.git] / software / ircd / www.irc.org / ftp / irc / server / Old / irc2.5 / serv.discuss.9Sep

IRC Log started Sun Sep  9 19:42 1990
<Trillian> logging...
*** Notice: Connecting to oddjob.uchicago.edu activated.
*** Notice: Connecting to byron.u.washington.edu activated.
<Trillian> Gwydion- there is that...
<lcl> Must be good if ur logging this.
<banshee> I want channel op too.
<Silver> Sane
*** Mode change (+o banshee ) on channel +Highdyho by Trillian
<Silver> Same, I mean
*** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator
<banshee> sniff sniff.
<lcl> Me too, me too.
<CMole> send to me too, mom?  I've gotta go check on the paint job...
*** Change: manu has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
*** Signoff: Fornax
<manu> hello all
*** Mode change (+o lcl ) on channel +Highdyho by Trillian
<LittleOne> adios
*** noc.belwue.de: You're not channel operator
<Cerebus> Highdyho.
<LittleOne> have fun
<LittleOne> bye bye
<lcl> bye
<banshee> bye Littleone.
<Trillian> bye LittleOne!
<Venus> bye LO
<CMole> be in and out if you need me
<banshee> *smooch*
<CMole> seeya LO
<GEM> bye L1!
<LittleOne> *smoock*
*** Signoff: LittleOne
<Trillian> Okay all, what do we think of open servers?  (First topic of discussion)
*** Mode change (+o banshee ) on channel +Highdyho by Gwydion
*** Mode change (+o CMole ) on channel +Highdyho by Gwydion
<banshee> I want food.
*** Cerebus has changed the topic to Oper meeting
<banshee> Oh... we are talking about servers.
<Gwydion> PIZZA!!!!
<Venus> shut up banshee
<lcl> Great if all users are guaranteed great.
<banshee> yes Venus-Mom.
<Venus> *smack*
<Gwydion> servers? ooo...  masters as well?
<Cerebus> I bet you're wondering why I've called you all here... 8)
<banshee> why have open servers?
<lcl> Pizza... *sigh*
<CMole> but there are a lot that are great on open servers
<Gwydion> why not?
<Gonzo> Is this a discussion? No, a disaster. *Sigh*
<ckd> Good question, Ban.
<banshee> Four score and seven years ago......
<Trillian> yes, thats what we want to know....
<Gwydion> our fathers...
<ckd> Unfortunately, none of the eris opers are ever around to ask.
-> *derbear* Hiya.... fine, thanks..yourself?
<manu> can you read me ?
<banshee> then again... why not have open servers?
<Gwydion> damn.  forgot the rest.
*** Mode change (+o Silver ) on channel +Highdyho by Kat
<CMole> I'm outta here... please send me a log (cmole@caen.engin.umich.edu)  thanx
<Trillian> banshee- security hole.
<banshee> thena gain.. do we even NEED one more server.
<Cerebus> ONE AT A TIME!  I can't keep up...
<BIFF> I'M WHY YOU DONT WANT OPEN SERVURS
<banshee> shouldn't we be getting people to use clients... and connecting in.
<lcl> brought onto this continent...
<lcl> or was that unto?
<Kat> <gack> I can't keep up at 1200 baud...
*** Change: CMole has left this channel.
<GEM> BIFF is very right - serious security hole.
*** Change: Kat has left this channel.
<Silver> STOP THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS!
<banshee> Four score and seven years ago, our fore fathers brought forth on this continet a new nation....
<lcl> BIFF *is* a serious security hole.
<Venus> heh-heh
<Trillian> lcl- I think you know what purpose BIFF serves.
<Venus>  /kill security hole
<Cerebus> Naw, BIFF is just a HOLE.
<Gwydion> nent.  contineNt.
<BIFF> NO, IM JUST A SERUIS ASSHOLE
<lcl> *laugh*
<banshee> gwydion... I can spell.. just can't type.
<Gwydion> banshee - you need food...
<Gwydion> think of pizza...
<GEM> banshee: why not the contiNET?
<Gwydion> a nice delicious pizza..
<pi> interesting "discussion", *sigh*
<Gwydion> OK.
<Gwydion> enough chitter-chatter.
*** Change: Exxon has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
*** Mode change (+o Exxon ) on channel +Highdyho by Exxon
<Gwydion> let's get down to business.
*** Change: manu has left this channel.
<Gonzo> Well, the last discussion was constrctive, but... ;-(
<banshee> Hey I don't want to remove eris... I had fun telnetting there last weekend.
<Gwydion> cerebus - why did you call this meeting?
<Exxon> Hey folks!
<banshee> Exxon -- we have no seawater in our gas.
<Venus> banshee: *laugh*
<Trillian> Okay guys, WHO WANTS OPEN SERVERS?
<Exxon> NEither do i, not anymore.  
<Gwydion> not me.
<Trillian> (we need a count)
<lcl> nor i.
<Exxon> I do! I do!
<Silver> No
<Hoppie> not me.
*** Signoff: Exxon
<banshee> Me!!!! (for devils advocate)
<GEM> Server-open servers?  not me!
<Gwydion> anyone who wants open servers, speak up and be killed.
<banshee> Didn't we vote on this already.
<ckd> Server-opens?  Gack.
<pi> no open servers
<Venus> I have no opinion on the topic
<lcl> Naw, Exxon just wants open bilges.
<Trillian> banshee- yes, but the cons are worse than the pros.
<Venus> *abstains*
<banshee> IRC -- where the topic gets debated till it dies 20 times.
<Trillian> (I squit Exxon)
<Annamirl> I don't have an opinion either...
<Trillian> why don't you guys have an opinion?
<Silver> Well, the only 'yes' I've heard was Exxon
<Silver> And Exxon was NOT an op
<banshee> Trill, because they are not admins... or don't fully understand the reasoning.
*** Change: meLazy has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
<lcl> Trillian: Why did you squit exxon?
<Trillian> Exxon is just having fun with eris...
<Annamirl> I have yet to see any major damage it does.
<Trillian> lcl- it was Hoppie
<GEM> Silver: how do you know?
<Venus> 1. I don't really give a damn...2. I don't know enough to give an intelligent opinion
<ckd> Exxon was a faked-server dood.
<BIFF> WHAT, GIVING BIFF OPER ISNT MAJOR DAMANGE?
<Venus> biff shut up
<pi> Annamirl: wasn't it you who complained about someone harassing you on negative channels a while ago?
<BIFF> OR SHUD I START KILLING FOLX TO PROVE THE POINT.
<Tce> why dont u guys explain all the naughties of open servers to us less in the know?
<Annamirl> wouldn't this convo be better with Wumpus and WiZ around?
*** Change: Exxon has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
<Venus> Tce: bravo!@
<banshee> *yawn*
<pi> Annamirl: that's one reason why server-open servers should be closed ..
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<Exxon> Hremsg hey again.
<banshee> I still say.. just remove the C:*::* fromteh code to cause half the problem to go away.
<albertus> I would prefer there were open servers.....but I am not fanatically devoted...
*** Mode change (+o Exxon ) on channel +Highdyho by Hoppie
<Trillian> why are open servers GOOD?
<banshee> Ohs ure... wumpus the flame master... and WiZ the strongly convicted agaisnt open servers... too biased.
<Annamirl> pi: Wumpus and WiZ???
*** Notice: Received KILL message for IrcSkel. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!eris.Berkeley.EDU!cs.bu.edu!cs.bu.edu!BIFFVM.BIT.NET!BIT.NET!BIFF (HE SUX)
*** Signoff: IrcSkel
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<pi> Annamirl: ??
<BIFF> GOT THE POINT FOILKX?
<Exxon> Um, yeah.
*** Change: Ivers has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
<pi> I said: Annamirl: wasn't it you who complained about someone harassing you on negative channels a while ago?
<Venus> oh biff wait I'll tingle at your manliness  :-p
<banshee> Why are we even talking about it?
<banshee> didn't we already have a vote?
<Annamirl> pi: what is exactely one of the reasons?
<Ivers> hi all
<Trillian> WiZ says he won't work on the code anymore unless eris goes away...TOTALLY away.
(Polymath) Um, yeah.  You're quite right, cerebus.
<Ivers> re hi melazy
<GEM> Tce: it is trivial to /kill anyone on IRC with a server-open server
<Gonzo> Very constructive, you US ppl.
<Silver> Why don't you ask who is *for* open servers?
<Silver> I doubt you'll find a lot of them.
<Annamirl> Trillian: I am sure Wumpus feels the same way...
<Tce> Gem: explain further please.....
<albertus> they make links quickly and when the net fals down they make it easier to repair it....that is the only real reason that I can see...an open server makes a link faster even than a server to wich you have a link....
<Trillian> Yes, but do we have a consensus on how to make them go away?
<pi> Annamirl: one reason to close open servers is that one can intrude secret channels using them
<Gwydion> makes it much worse.
<ckd> No, having a solid backbone with a high connectfrequency makes things faster to repair.
<Trillian> albertus- no they dont make the net easier to repair..whether you know it or not we have a backbone plan in the US that makes the net VERY easy to repair.
<GEM> albertus: so? put C and N lines in for all servers...I'll send you a copy if you want
<Annamirl> pi: I know that, but has anybody done so?
<Tce> and no one has bothered to define open server for me like i asked u to do
<Gwydion> albertus - you are assuming that we have a poorly designed network.
<Cerebus> Albertus:  Not in my opinion.  There are plenty of close alternate links to any site.. that *DON'T* introduce security holes.
<ckd> Having open servers encourages connections through them even when there are better ways to route.
<banshee> open servers serve no purpose like they did.
<albertus> I will sit quietly and watch now......
<GEM> Tce: "telnet eris.berkeley.edu 6667"  "SERVER foo" "nick Tce" will kick you off
<Silver> So why are we discussing this?  Close them.
<pi> Annamirl: well, I remember you having complained about someone doing so a few months back ...
<BIFF> ANNAMIRL I PEEK INTO SEKRIT CHANNELS ALL TIME
<Trillian> silver- fine, HOW?
<Gwydion> silver -how?
<banshee> each site can come up with at least 10 server to legally connect too.. and if they don't work.. the net is too shot to be fixed by open servers.
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<scruffy> not for hub...no one has given us links 0ther than ione site
<aich> hi hi
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<Venus> hi soph
<Ivers> the only way to have a completely secure system is to isolate it from everyone and let no one use it (i.e. no system can be totally secure)
<Silver> So this discussion isn't IF we should, it's HOW.
<GEM> Tce: a server-open server is one that accepts server connections from anywhere
<Ivers> hi soph
<lcl> Hi soph
<Annamirl> pi: but then some old servers were still operating, which gave the info to anybody.
<Hoppie> Open server - Server which allows any server connection.
<Hoppie> Hey soph.
<Silver> As for HOW, I'm not qualified to answer.
<Exxon> Hi Soph.
<aich> oops
*** Mode change (+i ) on channel +Highdyho by Cerebus
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<Soph> yo all
<BIFF> SILVER WE HAVE TRIED TO CLOSE THEM BUT WISNER AND RICHARDT WONT
<Tce> ok - so are u suggesting that someone map out a peer network such as used by the bitnet relays ?
<pi> Annamirl: (not anybody, but ops), but true ..
<GEM> Ivers: so?  does that mean that we shouldn't close the easy-to-close security holes?
*** Change: Ivers has left this channel.
<banshee> Hmmmm.... I feel like being nasty.
<Cerebus> No, but there is no need for that type of server.
<Venus> banshe: me too...go for it
<Venus> e
<banshee> Venus, can I do it to you?
<Annamirl> pi: any half way good hacker :-)
<Hoppie> tce - Can you say 'backbone plan'?
<Hoppie> tce - can you say 'conf file'?
<Tce> Hoppie: i think that was exactly what i just said...
<Venus> banshee: erm...not
<banshee> who is biff anyways?
<Trillian> tce- if not, its time to mail operlist-request@cs.bu.edu and ask for a copy of the latest backbone plan that came out last Friday.
<BIFF> WATCH TARGET DIE
*** Notice: Received KILL message for Target. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!eris.Berkeley.EDU!eris.Berkeley.EDU(zephyr.cair.du.edu <- cs.bu.edu)
<Cerebus> banshee: do it to biff.
<Hoppie> Tce - It's already been done.
<Tce> Hoppie: being condescending does not flatter you
<pi> Annamirl: the easiest way to do it is to use a server-open server ...
<Hoppie> tce - Sometimes it's the only way.
<BIFF> VERY SIMPLE EH?
<Venus> yes, it is.....
<banshee> sniff sniff.
<Gonzo> Trill: Did you post it in operlist already?
<banshee> yes... very.
<Trillian> Gonzo- ayup...
<BIFF> SEE WHAT OPEN SERVURS CAN DO?
<Annamirl> pi: yes, but I understand that is seems impossible to change wisner's mind about it.
*** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF. Path: uceng.uc.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!zephyr.cair.du.edu!banshee (Like this?)
*** Signoff: BIFF
<banshee> whee.
<Trillian> Gonzo- Friday just before midnight...unless its still being queued.
<Silver> *smile*
<Venus> you bastard banshee I was gona do it
<Tce> guys dont bitch at me - im just trying to get the story straight before i make a decision
<banshee> I feel better.
<Silver> Feel better, banshee?
<albertus> ckd....what server is BIFF standing behind? an open server server? can not any oper set up a fake server on his server?
<pi> Annamirl: true, and that is the main problem )-:
*** Change: BIFF has joined this channel (+Highdyho).
<BIFF> REHI
<banshee> hi ho.. hi ho.
<Cerebus> We should tell *EVERY USER* how to generate nick collisions, fake servers, bump servers and split the net.... This would *FORCE* the issue.
<banshee> venus, your turn.
<BIFF> IF I WERE A PROGRAM I'D JUST KILL YOU BACK
<Gwydion> arg!  YOU *again*?
<Trillian> albertus- yeah, but why mess up your OWN machine?
<Gwydion> get lost.
<Venus> cani can i can i
<banshee> biff, and I would put one up to kill you.
<Gwydion> I *hate* autamotons.
<pi> WiZ's idea of a 'fake eris' doesn't even seem too impossible to me ... it would split the net, but perhaps that would be a way to lock eris out
*** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF. Path: yaya.wpi.edu!wpi.WPI.EDU!Venus
*** Signoff: BIFF
<Venus> bye...
<Cerebus> Biff isn't an automaton.  BIFF is Usenet Prophet.
<GEM> bye Venus
<Hoppie> Tce - okay. It's just that the way you said it sounded like you were suggesting that something be done that would be redundant work without realizing that it was well in hand.
<albertus> it has been done
<banshee> Venus, comment your kills. :)
*** Signoff: Venus
<banshee> more fun that way.
<albertus> it did split the net
<Gwydion> venus - quit.
<Trillian> tce- open servers serve no purpose..if someone wants a link, connect to a client open server and /wallops. Net fixes are made harder by open servers.... the backbone plan MUST be followed.
<Annamirl> pi: and who is going to make that precise split?
<banshee> who says the backbone MUST be followed?
<Hoppie> pong x
<banshee> I NEVER saw a vote demanding the backbone.
(biff) I CAN RUN FASTER ROBOTS THAN YOU CAN
<banshee> ping y.
<Tce> Hoppie: well im sorry... i guess i was guilty of my own claim (being condescending) forgive pls
<Hoppie> oops.
*** Mode change (+n ) on channel +Highdyho by Cerebus
<Hoppie> tce - No prob.
<Silver> So BIFF *can* use lowercase... :)
<pi> Annamirl: all ops together with thier SQUITs and CONNECTs ...
<Trillian> banshee- it's not mandated, its SUGGESTED. It keeps the net much much stabler than when richardt did backboning... richardt has said this himself.
<albertus> the net was split.....for a while a few days ago there were two seperate nets...one consisting of japan australia and a few california servers, one consisting of the rest of the world....
<lcl> That was a fake BIFF.
<banshee> Trillian, yeah.. but yu don't know the circumstances he had to get the net together.
<Trillian> albertus- zephyr, betwixt, and others have other links set up for .au
<banshee> I do agree with what has been stated by Littleone in the infoserv...
<Trillian> banshee- yes, infoserv. *shudder*
<banshee> IRC must have a voting/constitution set up.
<banshee> IRC has no formal structure for doing things.
<ckd> Can you see what the anarchy types will say?
<banshee> You need to set the rules up before playing.
<Trillian> banshee- but how do we enforce this... richardt is already complaining 'central authority'
<lcl> Hey, yeah, and we can have committees, and regular meetings...
<ckd> Geez, we had enough problems just asking people not to have open servers.
<Gwydion> i agree with banshee.
<banshee> slow down.
<Gwydion> easy..  we ignore the idiot.
<Trillian> lcl- what fun! 
<lcl> ;-)
<banshee> ckd, I will get to the anarchy bit in a sec.
<Gonzo> Trill-- Infoserv is my desperate way to have admins come to a voting/or-whatsoever-else structure..
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<banshee> Trillian, I am not talking about inforcment.
<Trillian> Gonzo- no, infoserv is your latest IRC power play.
<banshee> I am talking about... how do we declare a vote...
<scruffy> one good point of getting rid of eris...that is chuckles server  8-)
<banshee> hwo long MUST each voting period be.
<banshee> WHO votes.
<Hoppie> Rocker says bye folx.
<Venus> nye Rocker
<Venus> bye
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<Gwydion> everyone interested enough to care should be able to vote.
<lcl> bye roc
<Tce> dont worry Drew - a LONG letter to CSU is being prepared....
<Trillian> voting period---two weeks?  All users/opers/admins vote, but are weighted differently.
<Venus> what is the topic now
<Trillian> Venus- the same.
<Venus> why weighted differently?
<pi> don't you see that votes won't help anything? wisner won't close eris ...
<Trillian> he will if we help him.
<Gwydion> trillian - yes..  how differently?
<ckd> At this point, we've already proven votes won't change some minds.
<Annamirl> pi: the first sensible point!
<banshee> Trillian, essentially irc has no charter... we need to develop guidelines so that in 3 weeks nobody shouts when something doesn't go there way.
<banshee> actually I am against all people voting.
<Trillian> Gwydion- something the way LittleOne suggested. Perhaps 5 points per admin 3 per oper and 1 per user... so that enough users could override the admin...
<Cerebus> Wisner won't do anything until forced.. then he'll whine.
<Gwydion> i agree with banshee's 1st statement.
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<lcl> Maybe if just the automatons voted...
<Silver> I suggest that YES votes must justify their answer...
<BIFF> I GET ALL THE VOTES
*** Signoff: Gonzo
<albertus> Washington said----"Government is force" Mao said "Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun" what are your sancitons? where is your gun?
<Venus> who invited him.....
<lcl> Can Wisner somehow be locked out?
*** Notice: Failed in connecting to oddjob.uchicago.edu :Socket is not connected
*** Notice: Failed in connecting to byron.u.washington.edu :Socket is not connected
<BIFF> I DONT NEED INVITING
<Venus> bleagh
<Cerebus> We can leaf him. That's about it short of crashing him.
<Hoppie> banshee the problem with making guidelines is that you need everyone to agree to them, and that incurs the same problems that the voting will.
<BIFF> CAN YU SAY SECURITY HOLE IN OPEN SERVERS
<Silver> Yeah.  BIFF is on an *open server*
<pi> Cerebus: exactly. Someone should set up a fake eris and let it run. The net will probably be split for several days, but eventually eris will be locked out
<Annamirl> lcl: no way!
<Silver> People on *open servers* can get onto closed channels...
<Tce> technically speaking, couldnt all irc servers refuse to peer an non-compliant site? or am i full of shit like normal
<banshee> Hoppie, so we have the charter ratified by 51% of ALL users.
<BIFF> I CAN DO ANYTHING A SERVUR CAN
*** Signoff: Exxon
<Cerebus> pi: I think we should leaf him *first*.
<ckd> Tce- no way to manage it.
<scruffy> (wonders what leafing is)
<ckd> Heck, some people haven't updated their servers or config files since last year.
<banshee> and the charter states how votes work differently... etc etc.
<Tce> ckd: real world concerns aside - isnt it still technically possible?
<GEM> Tce: in theory, yes, but it will be hard to enforce
<pi> Cerebus: yes, perhaps .. but there are too many sites connecting to eris
<Cerebus> scruffy: Make eris connect to only one server.
<ckd> Technically, yeah.  Politics are the problem here.
<Tce> <-- is not a programmer, knows VERY little how this works
<lcl> Speaking of real world concerns, whatever happened to that pizza?
<Hoppie> banshee somehow I think 51% isn't enough.  It's too easy to have it perceived as authority over the minority by the majority, which occasionally is a bad thing.
<albertus> wisner has said he doesn't mind eris being a leaf.....
<Hoppie> banshee- at least it will cause disruption.
*** Channel not found
<BIFF> FOR EXAMPLE I CAN SQUIT ALL OF ERISES LINKS
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<Gwydion> everyone follow trillian.
<Cerebus> pi: But we could work around that.
<banshee> Hoppie, then what.. 2/3?
<Tce> and besides - u didnt read my statement correctly - i did say ALL non-compliant sites
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*** Annamirl is away: please beep :-)
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<Gonzo> Thank you.
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Chn:       Nickname  S   User@Host (Name)
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<Gonzo> My host just shotdowned ;-(
<Cerebus> reHighdyho.
<Trillian> hi guys...any other suggestions who should be invited?
<banshee> not biff that is for sure.
<Hoppie> banshee - I suppose 2/3 is more reasonable.  But I'm afraid there will be screaming no matter what, if a set of rules of any sort is defined.
<Gwydion> biff does not need to be invited..
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<Gonzo> Trill -- Infoserv is my power play .. please explain.. ? ;-(
<Dabster> Thanks.
<BIFF2> BIFF IS EXISTENCE PROOF OF SECURITY FLAW
*** Inviting Venus to channel +Serv-Disc
<banshee> biff is leaving.
<Dabster> Can "biff" be killed?
<banshee> cna we have one and only one discussion goign on at a time?
<Dabster> does it matter?
<BIFF2> NO
*** Trillian has changed the topic to BEHAVE or be /kicked.
<banshee> his link can be /squitted.
<GEM> Dabster: with great difficulty...
*** Inviting Silver to channel +Serv-Disc
<BIFF2> IF IT CAN BE FOUND IT CAN BE SQUITTED
*** Notice: Received KILL message for BIFF2. Path: fairhope.andrew.cmu.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!GRASP.CIS.UPENN.EDU!ENIAC.SEAS.UPENN.EDU!Dabster (testing)
*** Signoff: BIFF2
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<Hoppie> brb
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<Trillian> OKAY, everyone QUIET and REASONABLE else /kick
<Gwydion> Trillian has the floor.
<Gwydion> everyone please be quiet.
*** Signoff: Gonzo
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!Tce! oh thanks for leaving Drew and I behind....
*** Signoff: pi
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<Hoppie> back
!Tce! fine - later.....
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<Trillian> hi pi
<Cerebus> reHighdy.
<pi> rehi
<Silver> Is someone going to say something?
<Dabster> What is the vote supposed to be about?
<ckd> pi- pick up flute?
<banshee> Silver, we were waiting for pi and gonzo.
<GEM> Silver: we are waiting for Gonzo to be back
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<Trillian> rehi Gonzo
<ckd> rehi gonz
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<Silver> RG
<pi> flute is connected to tel4 ...
<Cerebus> reHighdyho.
Topic:BEHAVE or be /kicked.
<ckd> pi - good deal
<Gonzo> Re .. hm, germany has problems due to munich host reboot .. ;-(
<Cerebus> tel4 hasn't changed its conf yet 8(\
<Trillian> Okay, I'd like to hear what everyone has to say about an irc.charter. One person may speak at a TIME..no interruptions, else you get kicked.
<Trillian> I'll say who's going to talk, then that person has two minutes to talk.
<Trillian> Then the next person talks.
<Trillian> The idea is that we MUST get rid of open servers.
<Trillian> Okay, I'll change that...
<Trillian> Whoever talks I will give you chopr
<Trillian> and make the channel moderated
<Trillian> no time limit
<Silver> *wave* Bye all..not really qualified for this discussion...
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<Trillian> banshee- speak, please.
<banshee> Oh great... I get the honor first.
<banshee> Okay....
<banshee> Primarily I am concerned with this irc charter.
<banshee> I do _not_ want it connected to the open server discussion... but I will try to show how it is related.
<banshee> I _know_ irc is an anarchy.
<banshee> But general guidelines do help.
<banshee> so if we could come up with a set of guidelines on how to do things...
<banshee> such as voting for irc changes.
<banshee> ratifying backbones or anything else of irc interest.
<banshee> then we would nto run into the anarchy we hit each time someone advocates a change.
*** Signoff: lcl
<banshee> essentially I see it applying to this open-server discussion in a few ways.
<banshee> 1- this vote... nobody knows how to conduct the vote.
<banshee> 2- what happens to those who do not go by the vote
<banshee> also on my mind are the amount of servers.
<banshee> a charter might help specify who could actually get a server.
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<banshee> another aspect would be on selecting backbone coordinators. etc etc.
<banshee> not sure what else to add...
<banshee> but primarily everyone is upset over the open servers.
<banshee> yet no one knows how to deal with it.
<banshee> Littleone proposed some good voting suggestions...
*** Signoff: Cerebus
<banshee> and I feel that selecting protocols of irc control is necessary before we start doign any other irc.net controls.
<banshee> (and I think I shall shut up now after 2 screens)
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<Trillian> thank you, banshee..
<Trillian> your turn, Gwydion.
<Gwydion> I recommend the following:
<Gwydion> [1] creation of a voting scheme, like mayhap Voteserv, or voting done on UseNet.
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<Gwydion> this voting scheme will define a network,
<Gwydion> this network is the property of some sort of consortium, whatever.
<Gwydion> therefore, your irc.conf file belongs to you.  the actual link, however, will belong to the consortium.
<Gwydion> this consortium is run by vote, of course.
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<Gwydion> it can have election or some other form of self-government.
<Gwydion> people who do not follow the majority in the votes are going to have their links removed.
<Gwydion> this means that we give up some freedom for organization.
<Gwydion> this has been the rule of human societies everywhere.
<Gwydion> this also means that the majority can enforce whatever rules it desires.
<Gwydion> while this might be bad in one sense, i think it is an acceptable form of government.
<Gwydion> i think anyone interested enough should be allowed to vote; as seems to be the rule on UseNet.
<Gwydion> that's it.
<Gwydion> you have the floor trillian.
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<Trillian> your turn, Gonzo.
<Gonzo> Oh ;-) The links are slow, so be patient..
<Gonzo> I agree both to banshee and Gwydion.
<Gonzo> We need a kind of organization.
<Gonzo> As all matters concerning IRC, I consider having votes on IRC>
<Gonzo> ANd, I suggest that all ppl that wanna give their vote can do so
!Gatch! Hey... How does one go about getting an invite to a channel???
!Gatch! How do i find the channel op
<Gonzo> All my thoughts are said by Gwydion 
<Gonzo> SO, the next one, pls.
<Trillian> okay...
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<Trillian> your turn, ckd.
<ckd> All of the functions claimed as "advantages" of open servers can be easily generated by non-open servers.
<ckd> The disadvantages, however, cannot.  Just ask BIFF.
<ckd> Simply put, this is a case of no gain at great loss.
<ckd> I close my argument there.
<ckd> As for the irc.charter, I don't know that that will be politically feasible...
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<ckd> of course, creating a "new" irc.net which requires charter agreement would be more than feasible (and probably the best way, creating the least flamage)
<ckd> Ok, who's next?
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<Trillian> Dabster, your turn....
<Dabster> Thanks.  I'll keep it relatively short.
<Dabster> First, let me point out that I haven't been watching this too closely, so let me apologize in advance.
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<Dabster> However, from what I've heard, I think there are a few important considerations:
<Dabster> Firstly, a charter is useless without the muscle to make changes. In order
<Dabster> to make something like a charter effective, it's important that the ones who are deciding such things
<Dabster> can make changes to the structure of the network, which as far as I can tell
<Dabster> is currently not possible.  Secondly,
<Dabster> although it has been said that there are no less advantages but less disadvantages
<Dabster> to an anarchical system as we have had, I fail to see why things such as Biff
<Dabster> create such a nuisance... I've never been bothered by them in the past.
<Dabster> Anyhow,
<Dabster> my point is, if you desire a more rigid IRC,
<Dabster> the rigidity must first be incorporated into the server code... of course, I'm assuming this is probably redundant.
<Dabster> redundant:  I figure you already knew this.
<Dabster> Well, as for my suggestions regarding the structure of "network X", I'd say Gwidion's model is pretty good-- still the same servers, but the links are determined by some central hub(s).  Maybe
<Dabster> (skip the maybe)
<Dabster> I'm done.
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<Trillian> thanks Dabster
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<Trillian> your turn, Cerebus
<Cerebus> Thank you.  <Slight bow>
*** danny is redrum@amy0.Stanford.EDU (Tragically Hip) on channel 19
*** on irc via server garfield.mit.edu (MIT Project Athena, Massachusetts, U.S.A.)
<Cerebus> As a specific reply to dabster; it's not the nuisance that BIFF (All praise Him) create that is the problem.
<Cerebus> BIFF (and others like him) represet a serious security hole.
<Cerebus> BIFF can circumvent (through open server servers) every precaution written into the code.
<Cerebus> Some say this is the fault of the protocol.
<Cerebus> But until a new protocol is developed, we *must* close off all opportunities of this sort.
<Cerebus> As far as a charter for IRC is concerned, I don't see how such a thing can be enforced.
<Cerebus> We'll end up with two nets... and it will fall on the admins to decide which net to connect to.
-> *fornax* there was another? Want to talk about it?
<Cerebus> And the most likeley decision will be to the anarchist net.. since that requires the least amount of work and maintainance.
<Cerebus> Well, that's all for now.
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<Trillian> thanks Cerebus
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<Trillian> banshee wishes to speak again.
<banshee> I just wanted to reiterate my thoughts on thsi charter.
<banshee> basically the charter needs a few things.
<banshee> 1) voting methods.
<banshee> 2) Methods for proposing changes and making the changes.
<banshee> 3) Punishments (bad word...) if the majority is not carried out.
<banshee> basically that is.. .your link is cut.
<banshee> 4) How to join irc.net
<banshee> 5) what the controls are... ie, who are admins or opers..
<banshee> 6) rules for those in control.
<banshee> and of course
<banshee> 7) methods of modifying the charter.
<banshee> (I can see some of you sitting there going.. this sounds like a civics class)
<banshee> it is.
<banshee> we do not need the US constitution... but we need a method for organizing this anarchy.
<banshee> As gwydion pointed out... organization results in the restriction of freedoms.
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<banshee> this is a basic premise of government.
<banshee> the government controls the punishments.
<banshee> and has the power to use them.
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<banshee> (sounds like central control... no)
<banshee> the reason it is no... is you are part of your society by choice.
<banshee> if you do not agree with the charter yuo don't join irc.net.
<banshee> you are free to go make your own net.
<banshee> and as the present situation has shown...
<banshee> we have to start governing ourselves, otherwise we all suffer the politics of the present and the problems that arise constantly.
<banshee> (geez, I never knew I could talk so much)_
<banshee> Okay I will shut up again.
<banshee> but any comments regarding this are appreciated.
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<banshee> as I do plan on pursuing this to see what is plausible.
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<Trillian> okay, you'r turn again Cerebus
<Cerebus> Well, banshee, I can see a few rpoblems
<Cerebus> Firslt, we will end up with 2 nets.
<Cerebus> (No big loss, you might say.)
<Cerebus> However, someone will connect to *both* of them.
<Cerebus> So, that person will be kicked.
<Cerebus> What will happen to a regulated irc.net will be a slow erosion of the number of servers available as servers are punished for violations.
<Cerebus> Finished for the moment.
<Cerebus> Take it away, Trillian.
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<Trillian> okay
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<Gwydion> i think i have some questions about the erosion of the net that you mention, cerebus.
<Gwydion> let us think of it in this way:
<Gwydion> there are fair-minded people in the world and there are unfair-minded people.
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<Gwydion> [or course, this is an oversimplification]
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<Gwydion> now, if we labour to make the charter fair-minded,
<Gwydion> i think that the fair-minded people will obey the charter.
<Gwydion> also, if we make the assumption that a majority of people are fair-minded [which i personally believe]
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<Gwydion> they it seems to me that a majority will uphold the charter.
<Gwydion> now, i would recommend that 
<Gwydion> we keep the charter open so that it can be modified.
<Gwydion> it is not something that should be easily modifiable, so that people have to be dedicated enough to get it changed.
<Gwydion> this way, i feel that the charter will converge to being perfectly fair.
<Gwydion> although it might never get there.
<Gwydion> anyways; give this:
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<Gwydion> the erosion that you mention will occur only when some unfair-minded people leave.
<Gwydion> i think that this is not just ok; it is actually *desirable*, because we want the net to contain only fair-minded people.
<Gwydion> the other net then, will consist of "social rejects" - people who have violated the charter, and then acted unfairly.
<Gwydion> the "main" net will then function smoothly.
<Gwydion> Basically, this is the scenario i foresee, if we were to try to implement a charter.
<Gwydion> and between us, there are enough backbone operators to form a fairly decent network.
<Gwydion> the other nice thing is that university department chairmen etc, who also approve of order and that sort of stuff will like irc when it is presented to them.
<Gwydion> that's all i have to say.
<Gwydion>                   THE END
<Gwydion> Trillian?
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<Trillian> would anyone else like to speak? I'm open to /m's.
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<Hoppie> I like the idea of having a charter.  However, I am anxious that we don't appear as if it is being foisted on people unnecessariloy.
<Hoppie> In the recent discussion of open servers, one point that came up that struck me was the distinct fear of central authority governeing the net.
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<Hoppie> In the recent discussion of open servers, one point that came up that struck me was the distinct fear of central authority governeing the net.
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<Hoppie> I am inclined to agree that central authority should be made as palatable as possible.
<Hoppie> Basically I don't want admins running off screaming because they think big brother is watching.
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<Hoppie> Next - about people signing the charter:
<Hoppie> If we are going to "punish" (is reprimand a better word banshee?) links for connecting to server that haven't signed,
<Hoppie> we then need a place to look to see that the charter has been signed.  I suppose it would be easy enough to announce that "x server has just agreed to join" somewhere,
<Hoppie> but we need to be sure there's a way to verify.
<Hoppie> I think that's all, except that I don't want to see the net split.  If there is any way to keep it together while not losing security, I'd like it.
<Hoppie> Back to you, Tril.
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<Trillian> Okay, how does this sound.... we think about what has been said...
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<Trillian> I've got a log of this entire conversation...
<Trillian> we mail it to interested parties...
<Trillian> and we meet again next friday or so...maybe a week..to discuss it again?
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<ckd> Sounds good to me.
<Cerebus> Otay.
<Hoppie> If I can make it, I'll be here.
<Gwydion> we should announce it to operlist.
<Avalon> could you annouce it in gmt/ugt time please ?
<Trillian> yes..... *thinkiing*
<Gwydion> this moderation scheme works great; i think we can carry on a decent conversation using moderation. 
<Gonzo2> I will edit this conversation
<Gonzo2> and put it into infoserv if everyone agrees.
<Trillian> Okay, next Friday.... lets say 8pm EDT which is, urm, midnight GMT
<Trillian> then again
<Trillian> hrm
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<banshee> 10 pm on a friday (after first week of classes)
<Gonzo2> 10pm ... Oh ppl
<banshee> oops...
<banshee> my math is bad.. that is 6 pm.
<Gonzo2> It's 5am in the morning in Germany then ;-(
<poxaV> yeah, but it's not friday.. :)
<ckd> The Finns will have to get up early and the Aussies will have to stay up late, or something.
*** Signoff: Cerebus
<Trillian> it will be a weekend....
<Avalon> ok...its 10am saturday here.
<Gonzo2> Ok, I will put this into infoserv. Nobody disagreed. ;-)
<Gonzo2> OK .. it's 3:30am here ... good nite *yawn*
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IRC Log ended Sun Sep  9 21:52 1990