[irc.git] / software / RELEASES / ircservices / achurch.org / services / lists / ircservices / 2000 / 000890.html

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   <H1>[IRCServices] Ircd's and Services....</H1>
    <B>quension at softhome.net</B> 
    <A HREF="mailto:ircservices%40ircservices.za.net?Subject=%5BIRCServices%5D%20Ircd%27s%20and%20Services....&In-Reply-To="
       TITLE="[IRCServices] Ircd's and Services....">quension at softhome.net
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    <I>Mon Oct 16 15:11:01 PDT 2000</I>
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<PRE>&gt;<i> Firstly it's very rude to blame Chris for what is infact the mailing list
</I>&gt;<i> administrator's fault for badly configuring the mailing list software.
</I>
Without intending to personally insult or otherwise anger anyone this
time around, I still insist this is a client issue.  Yes, Andrew could
reconfigure the list software as a workaround, but that doesn't detract
from the client's responsibility.

I attempted to make a point last time about this, but I wasn't very
clear.  I also went off on a tangent by saying &quot;Reply-To field is always
<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>&quot;, which besides being wrong, was
largely irrelevant.  Doh.  So, here's another go at it.  This time I'm
digging up RFC822, which AFAIK is the current standard for internet text
messages.

Select quotes from 4.4.4. &quot;AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO&quot;:

        For systems which automatically  generate  address  lists  for
        replies to messages, the following recommendations are made:
[...]
            o   If the &quot;Reply-To&quot; field exists, then the reply  should
                go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to
                the address(es) indicated in the &quot;From&quot; field.
[...]
        This recommendation is intended  only  for  automated  use  of
        originator-fields  and is not intended to suggest that replies
        may not also be sent to other recipients of messages.   It  is
        up  to  the  respective  mail-handling programs to decide what
        additional facilities will be provided.

Yes, I realize the last part clearly states it's only a
recommendation... but recommendations are not made without reason.

Okay, so that explains &quot;Reply-To&quot; vs. &quot;From&quot;.  But, I don't think that's
the issue here, since &quot;From&quot; is usually (I'm not going to say &quot;always&quot;
;) the address of the actual person who sent the message.  So where is
the second mailing list address coming from?
Relevant headers from message
&lt;&lt;A HREF=&quot;msg00913.html&quot;&gt;001701c037af$60b12340$<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">0100a8c0 at excaliburnetworks.com</A>&lt;/A&gt;&gt;:

   To:       &lt;<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at Snow.shadowfire.org</A>&gt;
   Reply-To: <A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>

Aha, so we have two different mailing list addresses.  Considering most
people are replying, the only field that needs to be considered is
&quot;Reply-To&quot;.  This is where I loudly insist the client is at fault. 
Reply does NOT mean &quot;broadcast to everyone who may have ever seen this
message on Earth&quot;.  Reply means &quot;send response back to originator&quot;.  As
per RFC822, the &quot;Reply-To&quot; field is to be used in this case.  The RFC
even backs me up on this in its wording: &quot;For systems which
automatically generate address lists for *REPLIES* to messages ...&quot;
(emphasis added).

Another note, in regard to my client, Netscape Messenger 4.74:  I have
two buttons to choose from when replying to messages: &quot;Reply to sender
only&quot; and &quot;Reply to sender and all recipients&quot;.  For the message with
the headers I displayed above, the first one generates a message
template with a single &quot;To&quot; line, containing
&quot;<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>&quot;.  The second button generates a
message template with multiple &quot;To&quot; addresses:
&quot;<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>&quot; and
&quot;<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at Snow.shadowfire.org</A>&quot;.  That may be useful in some cases,
but certainly not here.

The solution to the above issue?  Configure the client to behave
properly, or ditch it and get a better one.

Again, this isn't intended to be a personal attack on anyone; merely an
observation (OK, an _opinionated_ observation) that some mail clients
just do stupid things.

-- Quension

P.S.  Did I make my point clearer this time? ;)

---------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send email to <A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">majordomo at ender.shadowfire.org</A>
with &quot;unsubscribe ircservices&quot; in the body, without the quotes.


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	15	<B>quension at softhome.net</B>
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	17	TITLE="[IRCServices] Ircd's and Services....">quension at softhome.net
	18	</A><BR>
	19	<I>Mon Oct 16 15:11:01 PDT 2000</I>
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	33	<!--beginarticle-->
	34	<PRE>><i> Firstly it's very rude to blame Chris for what is infact the mailing list
	35	</I>><i> administrator's fault for badly configuring the mailing list software.
	36	</I>
	37	Without intending to personally insult or otherwise anger anyone this
	38	time around, I still insist this is a client issue. Yes, Andrew could
	39	reconfigure the list software as a workaround, but that doesn't detract
	40	from the client's responsibility.
	41
	42	I attempted to make a point last time about this, but I wasn't very
	43	clear. I also went off on a tangent by saying "Reply-To field is always
	44	<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>", which besides being wrong, was
	45	largely irrelevant. Doh. So, here's another go at it. This time I'm
	46	digging up RFC822, which AFAIK is the current standard for internet text
	47	messages.
	48
	49	Select quotes from 4.4.4. "AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO":
	50
	51	For systems which automatically generate address lists for
	52	replies to messages, the following recommendations are made:
	53	[...]
	54	o If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply should
	55	go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to
	56	the address(es) indicated in the "From" field.
	57	[...]
	58	This recommendation is intended only for automated use of
	59	originator-fields and is not intended to suggest that replies
	60	may not also be sent to other recipients of messages. It is
	61	up to the respective mail-handling programs to decide what
	62	additional facilities will be provided.
	63
	64	Yes, I realize the last part clearly states it's only a
65	recommendation... but recommendations are not made without reason.
66
67	Okay, so that explains "Reply-To" vs. "From". But, I don't think that's
68	the issue here, since "From" is usually (I'm not going to say "always"
69	;) the address of the actual person who sent the message. So where is
70	the second mailing list address coming from?
71	Relevant headers from message
72	<<A HREF="msg00913.html">001701c037af$60b12340$<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">0100a8c0 at excaliburnetworks.com</A></A>>:
73
74	To: <<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at Snow.shadowfire.org</A>>
75	Reply-To: <A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>
76
77	Aha, so we have two different mailing list addresses. Considering most
78	people are replying, the only field that needs to be considered is
79	"Reply-To". This is where I loudly insist the client is at fault.
80	Reply does NOT mean "broadcast to everyone who may have ever seen this
81	message on Earth". Reply means "send response back to originator". As
82	per RFC822, the "Reply-To" field is to be used in this case. The RFC
83	even backs me up on this in its wording: "For systems which
84	automatically generate address lists for REPLIES to messages ..."
85	(emphasis added).
86
87	Another note, in regard to my client, Netscape Messenger 4.74: I have
88	two buttons to choose from when replying to messages: "Reply to sender
89	only" and "Reply to sender and all recipients". For the message with
90	the headers I displayed above, the first one generates a message
91	template with a single "To" line, containing
92	"<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>". The second button generates a
93	message template with multiple "To" addresses:
94	"<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at ender.shadowfire.org</A>" and
95	"<A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">ircservices at Snow.shadowfire.org</A>". That may be useful in some cases,
96	but certainly not here.
97
98	The solution to the above issue? Configure the client to behave
99	properly, or ditch it and get a better one.
100
101	Again, this isn't intended to be a personal attack on anyone; merely an
102	observation (OK, an _opinionated_ observation) that some mail clients
103	just do stupid things.
104
105	-- Quension
106
107	P.S. Did I make my point clearer this time? ;)
108
109	---------------------------------------------------------------
110	To unsubscribe, send email to <A HREF="http://www.ircservices.za.net/mailman/listinfo/ircservices">majordomo at ender.shadowfire.org</A>
111	with "unsubscribe ircservices" in the body, without the quotes.
112
113
114	</PRE>
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